withoutsanctuary.org

[PacMan3000]

I am going to purchase this book based on the reviews here, but I have a question for those that bought the book and know a great deal regarding this chapter in American History.

What I am very curious about is this...did the white people who participated in these lynchings make up the majority regarding the mindset of most white folks at the time? What I mean by that is this...the big story recently has been about dog fighting in America. How it's an awful subculture, and how the men and women who participate in this not only just fight dogs, but they shoot, lynch, and drown the dogs that don't show enough "fighting spirit." However, I certainly would not say that most of America feels this way about animals. I would say the average American enjoys animals, and feels they deserve to be treated with respect (even if they are ironically eating a Hamburger at the time they say this).

So my question is...do you think (or know) if the white people who engaged in these horrific acts represented the extreme racist mindset of the majority of white folks in that time period? Or, were the whites who supported/enjoyed/participated in these lynchings similar to the people who support and participate in horrific things like dog fighting and other awful crimes--they are more in the minority when it comes to what the majority of Americans within that time think and believe in?

[dan]

I don’t believe you just made a comparison between dog fighting and the pictures on this website. Dogs are ANIMALS, these are humans beings real people. You actually used the word lynched when you were talking about dogs. There is something psychologically wrong with your thinking. This was one of the greatest crimes against humanity and you brought up pit bulls.

[PacMan3000]

Here we go.

First off, I'm black, so don't give me that response. Secondly, I wasn't comparing one crime to another. Read what I wrote. I was comparing how people react to certain crimes. Fill in dog fighting for whatever the hell you want--I don't care. But truly, if you don't see the sick irony between the way people treat certain animals and the way blacks were treated at this time, you need your head examined.

On a separate note, though...the killing of animals for sport in something like a post dog fight is sickening, too. Honestly, I think if stuff like that doesn't bother you, there's something wrong with you. I have a deep appreciation and love for American and human history, but I am also able to understand that there are things in this world that are important besides just me and others that look like me. Animals, the environment--it all matters.

Now, does the killing of animals compare to lynchings in America? Hell no, but what does? But that's like saying that you don't care about people's houses that burned down in the Cali wildfires because, compared to something much worse like slavery or the holocaust, it's really no big deal. They didn't die, only their material possessions and shelter suffered, but hey, they're still living. Here's a reality check for you--you don't ignore one awful thing because it's "not as bad" as something else.

[dan]

You used the words sick irony. I read your post and I totally understand what your saying. You have to understand that you’re minimizing the act when you compare it to dog fighting or killing baby whales or dolphins. If your Afro American and I have to explain this to you than your one of the reasons our people are having a hard time. What happened to our people is mind-boggling one of the greatest crimes in human history. Our identity our manhood our respect our lives almost everything was taken from us. It will take us a thousand years to recover and you compared it to dog fighting or saving dolphins. Have you ever been in a black home where education is not respected do you know why---because during slavery if you could read you were killed. Do you know why there are fathers missing from 70% percent of black homes----During slavery if the master wanted your wife, your family could be sitting in your shack and the master would come and take your wife and rape her and send her back and you just sat there. The man and his manhood was devalued he was not a protector or anything. That’s why today most black men don’t know how to be a father and society devalues them so much. Think about what I’m saying think hard go deep into your thoughts. Do you realize that more Caucasians would complain if they saw injustice done to a pit bull than a black man.
PLEASE THINK !!!!!!!

[PacMan3000]

I don't need to be educated on black history.

Again, I never compared dog fighting to lynchings or slavery. What I did was compare the mindset of the people who participated in these acts to something in modern day. I'm sorry, but there's not too many things you can compare mass lynchings to nowadays. We live in a PC culture, and even though there are atrocities all around the world, there's nothing similar to whites eagerly gathering to witness the execution of a black man via lynching. So, I compared the mindset of whites who would do this to what is at the forefront of news today--the mindset of people who would eagerly execute animals for fun or profit or out of anger.

There was never a comparison between the actual crimes, and it's foolish of you to imply that I suggested that.

[BUHAY]

[quote="PacMan3000"]
[i]What I am very curious about is this...did the white people who participated in these lynchings make up the majority regarding the mindset of most white folks at the time? [/i]

It's the first time I visited this site and I ask myself the same question about these lynchings, what were the mobs thinking, this is very inhumane. I mean people can say those who commit crimes, people who kill or murder have mental health/psycho issues, blah blah etc. but man, who knows what's going on their mind. For me, I think it all comes down to Power and Control. Like you were asking about the mindset of the people involved in dog killings, I mean that's power and control issue---us humans think more powerful over animals and we can do anything we want, right? For the white mobs who participated in lynchings, I would say the same thing that white people equals power and control over black people. Some would reason their lynching act "Oh because this black man raped this white woman" that triggered them to get mad, riot...such that anger results to violence....but my point is that people have a choice to outlet their anger in a more positive way. I remember during a Martin Luther King celebration, the guest speaker mentioned why Dr. King's Non-violence strategy was powerful, I forgot the exact terms but basically the point is that black people and allies marched diplomatically to address racial injustices, they did not resort to violent acts. So when I try to think what the white mobs state of mind during the lynchings, I dont even want to justify it or reason out that because the black man did this or that, because the white mobs knew what they were doing, it's all about power and control, not mental health issues, etc. I mean lynchings still happen today and it comes in many other forms. I think killing dogs is so wrong, but unless you educate people that it is wrong and needs to be stopped and there needs to be accountability--only then that will lessen dog killing cases. And until they include the TRUTH that racism exists and matters in our educational system, discussing these with friends and families---I am hopeful that there is at least one person who would stand up against any prejudice, injustice and discrimination, and at least one person who would become an ally for marginalized groups of people.

[dan]

I cannot believe the ignorant’s of some people you cannot compare dog killing to racism. I’m not going to try and change your mind because you don’t understand. When you try and compare racism to an act like dog killing your minimizing racism that’s why it will exist until man reaches a higher level of intelligence. I’m going to give you an example; the food industry tortures animals on a regular basis. Animal shelters put dogs to sleep on a regular basis. So theoretically if I’m fighting a dog or racing a Grey hound and it doesn’t perform the way I want I can put it to sleep. Wrong or right it’s done everyday. The reason why this is psychologically possible is because we need meat to live we need animal protein. This is the reason the killing of an animal is natural to a human. Now racism, there’s no psychological reason for racism exempt ignorance. The crimes committed against African Americans were the worst in the history of the human race. Now the mindset, the mindset of 90% of Caucasians is that they are superior but any geneticists will tell you that they come from the Negro race. The reason why Caucasians developed the physical features they have (i.e. skin color) are because they developed in a colder environment. Now the mindset of animal lovers--there’s nothing wrong with not wanting animal needlessly hurt. But when your level of enthusiasm becomes fanatical you have a psychological problem. There’s so many issues involving humans but you look the other way and worry about dogs. Human hunger, child abuse, racism, child sexual exploitation, human slavery, war crimes, drug abuse, aids baby’s, aids, and you worry about pit bulls you’re a joke!!!!!!!!!!!!

[yama]

Dan....your peaching to the chour but your still not listening...negros were not considered truely human...so some of the same "mentality" used for killing non-humans was at play here...Pacman was asking about the population as a whole...did they feel these crimes were just ok because the victims were negros...or was there the same kind of outrage we have now over the dog fighting case...were talking about a mentality and a culture of cruelty... and my answer to pac would be NO...all of the outrage and compassion was reserved for whites only...


Please understand what he's asking....he's not comparing dogs to blacks...he talking about a MENTALITY AND CULTURE OF CRUELTY.
It's still here....in every horror movie you pay to see .... WE HAVEN'T CHANGED... IT JUST LOOKS DIFFERENT NOW... and it's just as excepted.

[dan]

Once again I understand what you both are saying. PLEASE listen: your simplifying the situation it’s not a culture of cruelty it’s a much deeper situation. Racism has nothing to do with cruelty to animal’s its a totally different mindset and psychology behind it. Your trying to rationalize the situation so you can understand it. In most cases they treated their animals better than African Americans. Yama you’re tying to rationalize it by comparing it to horror movies. If every dog in America were murdered today so what--it would not change human history. If every TV station played a horror movie it would not change human history. When you compare it to those types of things your minimizing that’s what Caucasians do. Now if you’re not a Caucasian maybe you’re an African American that’s been sheltered from the situation or had good guidance and never experienced real racism first hand. Imagine being in your house and there are 500 kkk outside ready to lynch you the man is crying the wife is crying and the kids are cowering in a corner. To describe this situation you us words like (dog fighting cases, horror movies, culture of cruelty) IT’S THE GREATEST CRIME IN HUMAN HISTORY IT WILL TAKE BLACK PEOPLE 500 to 1000 YEARS TO RECOVER. Please forgive any errors I make I’m trying to type this as fast as possible.

[yama]

:!: DAN!!!!!!!!!! WE ARE NOT THE ONLY PEOPLE TO BE HATED IN THIS WAY.
I hear you loud and clear and further, I know where your heart seems to be on this issue, but brutha, please look at the bigger picture. You've seen and heard and felt all pain that is on this site, as I have. It's about the under-value of life Dan!..... ALL "human" life, and it started with how we treat all other life on this planet. That's really all I'm trying to say....by the way, 23mths. for killing man's best friend is a record maybe?

P.S. Dan, babe this is not simpifying what happened.....WE ARE GOING DEEPER.

[dan]

Yama I’m going to teach you something, Mike Vick I feel sorry for him. Pit bull fighting at one time was legal in the USA (circa 1890-1945) fights were advertised in the newspaper. Some white family’s made their living raising and fighting pit bulls some still do today (google- Colby pit bulls and google- boudreaux pit bulls). Blacks could not attain a good fighting dog because of racism. Around the 70’s certain prominent blacks athlete’s entertainers etc. brought fighting dogs money talks. When that happened fighting dogs started showing up in the big cities. Pit bulls were seen with blacks America had uproar. There have been numerous whites that have been caught fighting pits bulls that have been doing it for generations. Nobody ever caught has been punished like Mike Vick I wonder why, they’re doing it to him because he is a rich young African American. You have to understand something Mike Vick was worth 141 million lets say he killed ten dogs. Why not fine him ten million, why take 141 million out of the hands of a black family. Do you realize how many prominent whites are involved in dog fighting? This is what I know his money is athlete money now but it will be old money with his grandkids. Vick helped alot of black people, his mother helped alot of black people. Vick was just a young African America that really did not know better and they completely ruined him for it.

[yama]

Dan... thank you for the unwanted history...... :?: Why do our black men "still" measure their worth based on whether or not they have the [b]freedom[/b] to duplicate their "Masters" evil deeds? I can't believe that you truly thought you were teaching me something? What you have done however is tell me alot more about yourself. As For Mr. Vick.... To Hell with him.... He had it all....period. I doubt they will go after anymore dog fighting rings.....He has been made an example of.....no one is jumping up and down for him. What he did was horrid.

P.S. "HE" THREW IT AWAY......"THEY" DIDN'T TAKE IT!!!!

[dan]

My point was he was a confused young man. I don’t agree with dog fighting or selling crack or heroin. Yama you have to understand when we do something our penalties are much worse. As a father I feel sorry for Mike Vick I feel sorry for our young men that are in prison for most of their lives for selling crack or heroin. Yama we do not grow cocaine or heroin we know were it comes from but the country does very little. Who controls the heroin trade in this country the mafia who controls the cocaine trade the Columbians. Many people have spoken up for Vick he was prosecuted to harshly because he was black. Al Sharpton said the government cares more about pit bulls than black people.
Yama think about my next statement white America would be more outraged if someone did something awful to some pit bulls than a black person. Yama I taught my son to read in kindergarten he’s in college now. Most of our young black men don’t have that, if mike Vick had a strong black man raise him and guild him he would not be in that situation. Blacks are 13% of the us population and 50% of the prison population that’s a direct result of slavery and the government not overly concerned with our race.

[yama]

Dan... I completely understand your points....however, I'm with Cosby on this one, there are plenty of young black men who didn't have a father and never found themselves in these situations. Bull poop....I have the feeling that it really doesn't matter what he did , you'll say the reason was the white man. Let's just agree to disagree. And finally, many educated black women are no longer settling for brothas who screw up and blame it all on a string of events that lead to the white power structure. We are just sick and tired and we know now that a strong man takes responsibility completely and blames NO ONE for his foolish decisions. Mr. Vick is in a steel plantation(of sorts) now and he needs to be there for the next 22mths.

He had a Mansion
$3,000 suits
Any woman he could pay for....
A dream job
A car that cost a house note... and
His mother's pride and joy..


Micheal did what he did because everything he had wasn't enough. He had an itch that only seeing or causing pain could scatch. I do not feel anything for him, only his mother. (funny, many of the men in those pics had the same problem, I'm sure many of them may have grown up with out a father... DO THEY GET A PASS TOO?

[Ariel C.]

What did Jefferson meant when he stated in the Declaration of Independece "All men are created equal? We dont know for sure and we cant puzzle it to archieve an certain answer. One thing we do know is that even today, century 21, 2008,Martin Luther King Day we are currently witnissing racial problems all over the country. So are all men created equal?? Its a shame thats this powerfull nation reputation is been darkened by this ongoing issue thats seens to never end!! Nevertheless, we cant blame all americans for that issue, because has someone said before, it was the americans who fougth for the end of slavery... or was just an excused to weekened that economy of the south...Who knows not even Abraham Lincoln. This arrised the question "Is American truly the land of freedom?? Well if we based our arguments on the past nad present events, this is just a country that uses the others in order to obtain power.., a beutiful example; inmigration.